Sv: Konstruktiv kritikk av Kona

[Elmo]

I have current-measure-solenoid installed on one car together with PakTracR and I have Amp clamp-meter 

[Elmo]

Tested on one of my cars.  Charging set to 10A AC.   Checkelec shows 6A.  Clamp-metee shows 9,2A

[Steens]

Tested on one of my cars.  Charging set to 10A AC.   Checkelec shows 6A.  Clamp-metee shows 9,2A

Saxo or 106 ? They are supposed to be the same but on my 106 set on 10A AC, Checkelec shows 10A during charge and then 5A during overcharge. What does Checkelec show on yours during overcharge phase ?
Did you measure the 9.2A on one of the cables connected to the battery fuse or on the charging cable ?
I have a clamp amp meter but never measured. I will do this next week, my car being actually under maintenance : two battery blocks to change !

[Elmo]

That was a 106 (se info attached). I measured on a batterycable.
I only tested briefly this morning, when the batteries were close to empty. Will test more later.

[timescape]

Tested on one of my cars.  Charging set to 10A AC.   Checkelec shows 6A.  Clamp-metee shows 9,2A

Saxo or 106 ? They are supposed to be the same but on my 106 set on 10A AC, Checkelec shows 10A during charge and then 5A during overcharge. What does Checkelec show on yours during overcharge phase ?
Did you measure the 9.2A on one of the cables connected to the battery fuse or on the charging cable ?
I have a clamp amp meter but never measured. I will do this next week, my car being actually under maintenance : two battery blocks to change !

Hi Steens,
Sorry to hear about your battery bloks.. It takes time to change ..

Have just measured My SAXO from -97..
The Car was almost fully charged..
I measured:
14Aac on the mains.
18,3ADC with current clamp on battery wire..
The app. shows -13ADC / -14ADC ( It must be close to 13,5 as it changes from time to time)

Please note that the Battery current will change during charge.. It depends on the Battery voltage !
If the car is set to 14A from mains it will pull 14A from the mains.. this is the constant.
If the battery voltage is low , the charge current will be higher (20-22ADC).. transferred effekt from mains  (I*U=P).
Also the mains voltage will affect the Charge current as transferred effekt W will be affected .. (I*U=P).
example (lossless). amp setting 14A
14A*220Vac = 3080W From mains.

Battery voltage 130VDC
3080W/130V = 23,6ADC battery current..

(I have noticed that the charge graf has MAX 20ADC .. Has to have higher MAX (25A ?).
Same during driving SAXO can pul 200A from the battery. But graf only goes to 150A... 

Hope this can be at any help.
Thanks again for your brilliant work..
Br

[Elmo]

(I have noticed that the charge graf has MAX 20ADC .. Has to have higher MAX (25A ?).

Of cource my problem (only ), but I have external equipment so that I can charge with up to about 60A DC.

[timescape]

(I have noticed that the charge graf has MAX 20ADC .. Has to have higher MAX (25A ?).

Of cource my problem (only ), but I have external equipment so that I can charge with up to about 60A DC.

LOL. Me Too.. DC charge..   
But I think.. the App. do not need to include that support
Br.

[Steens]

Tested on one of my cars.  Charging set to 10A AC.   Checkelec shows 6A.  Clamp-metee shows 9,2A

14Aac on the mains.
18,3ADC with current clamp on battery wire..

So in Elmo case we have a DC nearly equal to AC current, and in Timescape case we have a DC current higher than AC. Strange... 
It could be good to have the Lexia (or equivalent) value also with these measurements if possible.
You have also different high and low voltage software versions (Timescape V3.50 vs Elmo V3.3C). It could be possible that the scaling is different following those versions.

Please note that the Battery current will change during charge.. It depends on the Battery voltage !

I don't think that the charge is performed at constant power, but rather at constant current. It's at least what is indicated by the ECU (whatever the scaling coefficient, the returned current value is constant during the charge).
So I think that the power drawn from main will increase during charge (assuming that the charger thermal losses are constant).

Same during driving SAXO can pul 200A from the battery. But graf only goes to 150A... 

Yes I know, but as 200A is in the red econometer part, I voluntarily stopped the graph at 150A (orange/red limit) to have a better resolution in the normal operation range. I suppose you rarely go above 150A ? Personally, I rarely go above 100A.
I's the same in the negative part : the graph is limited at -100A. If you make a very big regen braking you can go below but as it is rare it's not worth reducing the graph resolution for that.

[Elmo]

It could be good to have the Lexia (or equivalent) value also with these measurements if possible.
You have also different high and low voltage software versions (Timescape V3.50 vs Elmo V3.3C). It could be possible that the scaling is different following those versions.

When i get time . . . I can verify the current in Checkelec with both evLite and Lexia on all my cars. I thnk I have only V3.3C cars, but I will of course document that too.

[timescape]

14Aac on the mains.
18,3ADC with current clamp on battery wire..

So in Elmo case we have a DC nearly equal to AC current, and in Timescape case we have a DC current higher than AC. Strange... 
It could be good to have the Lexia (or equivalent) value also with these measurements if possible.
You have also different high and low voltage software versions (Timescape V3.50 vs Elmo V3.3C). It could be possible that the scaling is different following those versions.

Please note that the Battery current will change during charge.. It depends on the Battery voltage !

I don't think that the charge is performed at constant power, but rather at constant current. It's at least what is indicated by the ECU (whatever the scaling coefficient, the returned current value is constant during the charge).
So I think that the power drawn from main will increase during charge (assuming that the charger thermal losses are constant).

Same during driving SAXO can pul 200A from the battery. But graf only goes to 150A... 

Yes I know, but as 200A is in the red econometer part, I voluntarily stopped the graph at 150A (orange/red limit) to have a better resolution in the normal operation range. I suppose you rarely go above 150A ? Personally, I rarely go above 100A.
I's the same in the negative part : the graph is limited at -100A. If you make a very big regen braking you can go below but as it is rare it's not worth reducing the graph resolution for that.
[/quote]

Your mains current is you stable constant during charge. (in my case set to 14Aac). Unless the Charger for some reason limits the Battery DC Current (almost full batteries).
For Me, and I am not the expert here . It looks like you are showing the ac mains current. I measured 14Aac from mains and the app. showed 14ADC current..
I can however see the point in that you are probably looking at same byte/telegram for both charging and discharging ?

The DC current to the batteries should not be constant during charge. At least as I have understand the principle in the charger. Of cause there can differences in firmware. So I will check with Lexia to and we can compare with Elmo

Elmo, what is your ac current set to during charging ?
Mine is 14Aac. We should set the same value for reference

The Charger rectify the Mains to get the high internal BUS DC to switch down to Battery charging Voltage/current. (like a normal sw-mode supply).
However because the current draw from the mains is so high, the charger uses a PFC (Power Factor Correction) stage, to obtain nearly PF 1 from the Mains (like resistive load). 
https://www.renesas.com/en-us/solutions/key-technology/power-management/pfc.html
The Service manual indicates the same.. Se picture

Again, I understand Power electronics, But I am not a great programmer
I am very thankful for your work. It is really helpfull.
In a small try to understand the data packages you are using.. Is it RDD byte 5 you are looking at ?
(see picture, sorry it is in Danish. RDD byte 5 should be "Current HV-battery".

Yes, I do run the car in yellow/RED on econometer often. The City I live in have hils around it and people gets "pissed" if I am too slow

Thanks

[Steens]

It looks like you are showing the ac mains current. I measured 14Aac from mains and the app. showed 14ADC current..
[...]
Is it RDD byte 5 you are looking at ?

Yes, I'm using this byte, that's why I said that's the ECU current data. So the problem is actually to determine the scaling factor to apply to this byte data to have the real value. But whatever this scaling factor is, this value remains constant so that's why I was talking about a CC charge (Constant current).

I'm not a battery expert, but I know that most of the battery technologies (Nicd, Nimh, Lipo, etc.) are charged using a CC/CV method (Constant current phase followed by a constant voltage phase). The PSA Nicd seem to be charged using a CC/CC method (according to SAFT docs).

Regarding the display, I think that the scaling factor is around 1.41 which is roughly the square root of 2, the ratio between peak and RMS current (i.e. between AC and DC). I don't know if this is just random or if there is a reason for that but in every case, the value I consider is representing the battery current measured by the ECU and not the main current.

By the way, where does the table of your second picture comes from ? I would be very interested to get the source document. No problem if it is in Danish, Google will help me !

Yes, I do run the car in yellow/RED on econometer often. The City I live in have hils around it and people gets "pissed" if I am too slow

Don't you have problems with your motor brushes and/or copper collector ?
For my part, I have also a big hill (10% capacity used on way and 10% on return just for that hill). And as I have every day nearly 60km with 40km at nearly 100A for 90km/h, I try to not go above 100A despite the car flashes from others !

[Elmo]

By the way, where does the table of your second picture comes from ? I would be very interested to get the source document.

Maybe one of there documents holds what you are looking for Steens ?
SAFT_Tech_manual  or  SAFT charge mode manual

[timescape]

It looks like you are showing the ac mains current. I measured 14Aac from mains and the app. showed 14ADC current..
[...]
Is it RDD byte 5 you are looking at ?

Yes, I'm using this byte, that's why I said that's the ECU current data. So the problem is actually to determine the scaling factor to apply to this byte data to have the real value. But whatever this scaling factor is, this value remains constant so that's why I was talking about a CC charge (Constant current).

I'm not a battery expert, but I know that most of the battery technologies (Nicd, Nimh, Lipo, etc.) are charged using a CC/CV method (Constant current phase followed by a constant voltage phase). The PSA Nicd seem to be charged using a CC/CC method (according to SAFT docs).

Regarding the display, I think that the scaling factor is around 1.41 which is roughly the square root of 2, the ratio between peak and RMS current (i.e. between AC and DC). I don't know if this is just random or if there is a reason for that but in every case, the value I consider is representing the battery current measured by the ECU and not the main current.

By the way, where does the table of your second picture comes from ? I would be very interested to get the source document. No problem if it is in Danish, Google will help me !

Yes, I do run the car in yellow/RED on econometer often. The City I live in have hils around it and people gets "pissed" if I am too slow

Don't you have problems with your motor brushes and/or copper collector ?
For my part, I have also a big hill (10% capacity used on way and 10% on return just for that hill). And as I have every day nearly 60km with 40km at nearly 100A for 90km/h, I try to not go above 100A despite the car flashes from others !

Hi Steens,
The document can be found in a zip file linked to from . In the "Dansk" folder. (I looked it is not in the French language folder. But maybe you can find it on the French forum..).
Direct link:
http://uldalen.no/Elbil/Verkstedmanualer-PSA.zip

It is a big doc. and I have not been reading it all carefully yet. Only skimming
It covers all PSA I guess. AX, SAXO, 106 ec..

Page 145. Starts about Charging..

Page 147. you will see the Normal charge graf..
When starting charge from empty batteries, the charger is in "constant Power" charging.
Please see picture from SAFT datasheet. Current or power charging difference.. In Power charging upto 140W module is allowed. So if battery is at 6V .. 140/6=23,3A  ..
The charger will pull what is allowed from the programed setting max amp. from the mains (it is a 3 kwa charger. So max 3000W + loss).

Page 149.. Here we go.. A lot about the protocol, telegrams ec...
If you need some help translating some of it, just tell me the part and I can to english


I have never had any issues with driving the car as you will drive a normal car to follow normal traffic. (If possible).
But noticed some saying to avoid yellow or red. But my mindset is to test things (I am an electronic test engineer).
If it break .. it is just not made good enuf.. (and I have to improve it yes ).
Have been driving on a test track in it 5 rounds. Foot fully down - Braking - Sliding corner -  Foot fully down .... ad so on.. (OK, the Teslas was faster than Me ).
The car did not break !
The cost was from 100 to 65% power. Motor was not hot.. But all the fuses was nice warm, and brake discs have never been more shining
Checked coal and kommutator when home again, all looked fine.

Br.

[Steens]

On the road again ! I changed 3 battery blocks this weekend !

The document can be found in a zip file linked to from . In the "Dansk" folder. (I looked it is not in the French language folder. But maybe you can find it on the French forum..).

Thanks for the link  . I had never seen this interesting document and I'm sure that we don't have an equivalent on the French forum (Although some equivalent chapters can be found in other documents).

When starting charge from empty batteries, the charger is in "constant Power" charging.

I'm not Danish fluent : on page 147, they talk about "konstant effekt" -> does that mean "constant power" ? Google translates this by "constant effect".

Please see picture from SAFT datasheet. Current or power charging difference.. In Power charging upto 140W module is allowed.

When I look at the SAFT documentation I read in §5.2.4 (page 18) that the MRE batteries shall be charged at constant current (20A).
In that SAFT document (where your table comes from), they talk about the possibility to charge at constant power or constant current.

I found in a commercial PSA document page 49/51 that the charge are supposed to be performed at constant current. But that document is a tech-commercial one so maybe not technically accurate.

In that Saxo technical document on page 23(15), they show charge graphs with varying current without more information.

Finally, what is sure is that the ECU shows a constant current value during charging in the transmitted data. As this data is the same as the one used to represent current drawn out of the battery during driving, I supposed it was also representing the current pulled in the battery during charging. But maybe it is the current drawn from main during charging ?

So the charging method used by PSA and the meaning of the current value read in the data messages are still not clear for me .

[timescape]

On the road again ! I changed 3 battery blocks this weekend !

The document can be found in a zip file linked to from . In the "Dansk" folder. (I looked it is not in the French language folder. But maybe you can find it on the French forum..).

Thanks for the link  . I had never seen this interesting document and I'm sure that we don't have an equivalent on the French forum (Although some equivalent chapters can be found in other documents).

When starting charge from empty batteries, the charger is in "constant Power" charging.

I'm not Danish fluent : on page 147, they talk about "konstant effekt" -> does that mean "constant power" ? Google translates this by "constant effect".

Please see picture from SAFT datasheet. Current or power charging difference.. In Power charging upto 140W module is allowed.

When I look at the SAFT documentation I read in §5.2.4 (page 18) that the MRE batteries shall be charged at constant current (20A).
In that SAFT document (where your table comes from), they talk about the possibility to charge at constant power or constant current.

I found in a commercial PSA document page 49/51 that the charge are supposed to be performed at constant current. But that document is a tech-commercial one so maybe not technically accurate.

In that Saxo technical document on page 23(15), they show charge graphs with varying current without more information.

Finally, what is sure is that the ECU shows a constant current value during charging in the transmitted data. As this data is the same as the one used to represent current drawn out of the battery during driving, I supposed it was also representing the current pulled in the battery during charging. But maybe it is the current drawn from main during charging ?

So the charging method used by PSA and the meaning of the current value read in the data messages are still not clear for me .

Hi Steens,
grate you got the blocks changed

"konstant effekt" ->  mean "constant power" Yes..
However it is not clear to Me if there is difference between FW rev. Or if it is a setting you can choose in Lexia ec. (I have not found it yet..
I can be wrong here, my car is almost fully charged. I will verify on next charge

But I have investigated a little
I think the byte you look at is right and it do show DC charge current..
But the scale is wrong/different hven charging ......

2 reasons
1. If I do only DC-charge (no current from ac mains). 4A DC into battery, the app changed between 2-3A..
So it do measure DC-current .. !
Note. current into Battery will be lower than 4A. (forgot to measure exact value). Approx 3,5A.. The DC-DC 12V converter will take power to run water pump/electronic ec., from DC before the current sensor in car).

2. when looking at the saft charge data. It says DC-charge up to 150A (please see picture).
So can scale divide  0->150A.  ?

Br.