Sv: Erfaringer med model x

[jur]

As Orla may have guessed, I'd love to have my car converted to Lithium, too, and on the road again. Too bad that we mostly start reverse engineering only when some parts are definitely broken. Analysing a running system would have been a nice idea. :-]

On the technical level, conversion from ZEBRA to Lithium is probably relatively easy. The charger section in the PCU seems to be of the dumb kind which relies on the BMI for control of the charge process. At least there is a lot of traffic on the CAN bus to support this assumption. However, the Enerdel pack comes with 400 VDC rated voltage, while the ZEBRA pack has only 371 VDC. So, chances are, that at least Gen0 and Gen1 PCUs may not be able to reach the required End-of-Charge voltage for the Enerdel pack. Maybe there is somebody in the know around to enlighten us?

Regarding certification issues, I'd rather expect, that a change from one manufacturer certified configuration (i.e. original ZEBRA pack with adapted charger) to another manufacturer certified configuration (_original_ Enerdel pack with adapted charger) should be possible within the type certificate.

Inserting a new battery with a new or adapted BMI may or may not void the type certification and possibly require application for a prototype certifcation. I've been through this back in the 90s - when EMI compliance was still unheard of - and would recommend to check back with the authorities or their certification delegation holders (here in Germany usually at TÜV or DEKRA) before starting any major work. Certification is of course tedious stuff, but no-one likes to literally sit on a potentially unsafe battery. 

At those who advocate the use of "Trilling" or Leaf spare batteries: how much do these match the Th!nk parameters (voltage, capacity, integrated BMI, Weight, Dimensions)?

I will be happy to share any information I am able to scrounge from my car. But having a Gen0 ZEBRA config, I am not overly optimistic to be able to apply much of it. Maybe somebody converts his working order Gen2 ZEBRA to Lithium and is willing to sell the old battery (hardly disinterested :-)=) )?

mvh,
Jens

[jabe1807]

Hei Jens
Fint hvis du kan skrive på norsk, slik at vi som ikke er så skolerte også kan lese det du skriver.

mvh Jan B.

[sven erik]

Kanskje det er smart å bare sette disse bilene med defekt batteri på lager et par år og håpe på at
prisen på lithium- batterier går ned. Det skrives stadig vekk at prisen synker etterhvert som produksjonen øker rundt om i verden. Så om  2-3 år så kan vi kanskje kjøpe batteri til 10-15000kr?

det er og noe som heter brukte batterier

[jabe1807]

Hvis det bygges om til lithium, hvordan kan dette oppdages ved PKK- kontroll?
Hvilken kostnad blir det hvis du (elbilhjelpen) bygger om fra zebra?

[jabe1807]

Kanskje det er smart å bare sette disse bilene med defekt batteri på lager et par år og håpe på at
prisen på lithium- batterier går ned. Det skrives stadig vekk at prisen synker etterhvert som produksjonen øker rundt om i verden. Så om  2-3 år så kan vi kanskje kjøpe batteri til 10-15000kr?

det er og noe som heter brukte batterier

Skeptisk yil brukte batterier. Ser ut til at hovedårsaken til at disse bilene stopper er defekte batteri.

[stradivaria]

Hi,

I know that there was one car converted to Enerdel from Zebra with Gen 1 or 0

There is one technical question to answer and this conversion is easy done.

I am not sure about carging process control in Gen 1. If BMI send the same data like in Gen 2, then it is no different for it what find go battery to charge.

Also, there is always possible to install extra charger from Gen2 in the car, which talk on CAN bus with BMS.

I can check it and post about it later what I will get from CAN bus in Gen1.

ELBILMEK team 

As Orla may have guessed, I'd love to have my car converted to Lithium, too, and on the road again. Too bad that we mostly start reverse engineering only when some parts are definitely broken. Analysing a running system would have been a nice idea. :-]

On the technical level, conversion from ZEBRA to Lithium is probably relatively easy. The charger section in the PCU seems to be of the dumb kind which relies on the BMI for control of the charge process. At least there is a lot of traffic on the CAN bus to support this assumption. However, the Enerdel pack comes with 400 VDC rated voltage, while the ZEBRA pack has only 371 VDC. So, chances are, that at least Gen0 and Gen1 PCUs may not be able to reach the required End-of-Charge voltage for the Enerdel pack. Maybe there is somebody in the know around to enlighten us?

Regarding certification issues, I'd rather expect, that a change from one manufacturer certified configuration (i.e. original ZEBRA pack with adapted charger) to another manufacturer certified configuration (_original_ Enerdel pack with adapted charger) should be possible within the type certificate.

Inserting a new battery with a new or adapted BMI may or may not void the type certification and possibly require application for a prototype certifcation. I've been through this back in the 90s - when EMI compliance was still unheard of - and would recommend to check back with the authorities or their certification delegation holders (here in Germany usually at TÜV or DEKRA) before starting any major work. Certification is of course tedious stuff, but no-one likes to literally sit on a potentially unsafe battery. 

At those who advocate the use of "Trilling" or Leaf spare batteries: how much do these match the Th!nk parameters (voltage, capacity, integrated BMI, Weight, Dimensions)?

I will be happy to share any information I am able to scrounge from my car. But having a Gen0 ZEBRA config, I am not overly optimistic to be able to apply much of it. Maybe somebody converts his working order Gen2 ZEBRA to Lithium and is willing to sell the old battery (hardly disinterested :-)=) )?

mvh,
Jens

[stradivaria]

Hi,

The project was successful. I spend 5-6 hours on this project and made PCU Gen 1 charging + driving Enerdel battery.

There is one technical question left to ansqer in this case. Zebra battery charging up to 384,1V, Enerdel up to 390V. The internal resistance are not the same, so, I hope to reach SOC 100% Enerdel battery.

In other hand it is not problem, Lithium cells do not need to reach end of charge like on Zebra.

This convertion can be done by ELBILMEK AS in Asker, check for more information www.elbilmek.no

Or contact me on the email: raimondas@elbilmek.no

[Hafting]

Beste bygget er en med toppfart på 142 km/t GPS hastighet, 22 kW lading og 300 km rekkevidde.

Er det en Think du har bygget om til 300km rekkevidde? Det hadde vært veldig interessant å vite mer, fikk du plass til denne batterikapasiteten i batterirommet?

[BauDemo]

I did this conversion - converted Think with Gen 1 PCU from Zebra to Enerdel.

The car drives spectacular - I think partly because of the super low internal resistance of the battery - I could reach 37kW output....
The charging works nicely too.
I had to rewrite some of the code in the nikometer to make it display high, average, and minimum cells in the pack.
See for yourself:



Another interesting effect is that the car does not smell battery that much... with the zebra there was always this very weak smell... no more with the Enerdel...
I think the Enerdel packs physical construction is a bit lacking - with welding/glue on the edges... but that could be improved with some steel and a blowtorch...

[Go-carter]

I did this conversion - converted Think with Gen 1 PCU from Zebra to Enerdel.

The car drives spectacular - I think partly because of the super low internal resistance of the battery - I could reach 37kW output....
The charging works nicely too.
I had to rewrite some of the code in the nikometer to make it display high, average, and minimum cells in the pack.
See for yourself:



Another interesting effect is that the car does not smell battery that much... with the zebra there was always this very weak smell... no more with the Enerdel...
I think the Enerdel packs physical construction is a bit lacking - with welding/glue on the edges... but that could be improved with some steel and a blowtorch...

How much do you recon you have used to do this conversion? And where did you source a Enerdel battery, US? My Zebra is still working, but I would like to have a plan in "backup" for the day somethin goes bust.

Would it be possible (within easy means) to build a lithium pack for the Think with i.e. cells from a leaf? It seems as theese are quite ease to get a hold of.

[VWspirit]

På Gen2 biler er det kun HV-kablene som må byttes i tillegg til batteriet.
Man bør også få tak i dekslet som beskytter LV og HV kablene inn på batteriet eventuelt kan dette lages.
Du kan også få bilen omprogrammert ned ThinkFast programmvare men dette er ikke nødvendig.

[Go-carter]

På Gen2 biler er det kun HV-kablene som må byttes i tillegg til batteriet.
Man bør også få tak i dekslet som beskytter LV og HV kablene inn på batteriet eventuelt kan dette lages.
Du kan også få bilen omprogrammert ned ThinkFast programmvare men dette er ikke nødvendig.

Nå anser jeg ikke omprogrammering som en kjempejobb - men om også det kan unngås så høres det unektelig ganske enkelt ut. Mye enklere enn jeg fryktet iallefall. Greit å vite at det finnes et "liv etter døden"

Men hvor er det enklest å få tak i Enerdelpakker, da?

[BauDemo]

The sourcing of the parts was probably the hardest parts.
I sourced DIN standard cable shoes (they have longer necks and require special tool for crymping), 35mm2 cable, shield for that cable, cable glants, connector so I could connect to the HV connector on the battery pack (very hard to find), connectors for the communication was easy to find... all cables I used were meant for vehicle installation.
I removed the internal heat insulation that was stuck to the car - if you do that use mask and protection glases - small glass fiber particles fly everywhere...
I bought some Enerdel packs from the German Think company - they were very expensive - someone on this forum told me that you could buy an Enerdel Think car for the money that I paid for a pack. I have couple of more packs and may do one more car.

I have no idea how easy it would be making a pack from Leaf cells - there are some challanges, but it is not impossible. In a simpler and not very safe version you could use a "reverse nikometer" to simulate the battery pack messages on the can bus...

I upgraded to the fast firmware and the car is a rocket... see the nikometer with the new firmware:


At one point it reaches 50kW!

[VWspirit]

http://elbilforum.no/forum/index.php/topic,11191.0.html

[Orla Pedersen]

I have no idea how easy it would be making a pack from Leaf cells - there are some challanges, but it is not impossible. In a simpler and not very safe version you could use a "reverse nikometer" to simulate the battery pack messages on the can bus...

In fuel-cell control we use a dual control system. One controler does the regulation and the other takes care of datalogging and safety. Each controler takes its own messurements and compares. That is, if one controler dies, the second controler shut down the system.

By the way, is the Zebra BMI safe? I'm not that sure anymore.....

Duinomite's are cheap, so a safe dual/triple system are in reach.