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[Jens_Think]

Hello all,

I'm a Think driver in Germany and bought my car as a demonstrator from the Netherlands in 2010.
It is an early 2008 model without AC and power steering, ZEBRA battery and a 2kW charger only.

After 35.000km without any troubles, the following error occurs since a few days:

• 5-6 minutes after switching the car on, the red triangle error light goes on. This happens regardless whether the Think is driving or just standing still. If it happens while driving, rekuperation goes off but I can still drive.
• If I switch the car off and on again, the "Power Limit" light blinks and the car doesn't go into drive mode.
• If I switch the car off and on again a second time, everything works fine for the next 5-6 minutes...

Other than that, the car charges and drives normally, no limited acceleration etc.

I went to a local Bosch garage (they do Think servicing in Germany) but the diagnose software showed no error messages from battery or PCU, even though the red error light went on while the car was connected to their laptop!

Maybe someone of you knows this error situation and can give me a hint what can possibly be wrong, I hope my description is understandable

Thanks in advance and best regards,
Jens

[Lynet]

Did the Bosch garage use Bosch tester or Think original?

[Jens_Think]

Did the Bosch garage use Bosch tester or Think original?

They just had a laptop with Bosch software and OBD2 connector, but "Think ZEBRA" was in the car selection menu.
I know there is a special Think diagnostics device, but these are very rare and expensive here and I think only the importer in Bremen has one.
Unfortunately they are located about 900km away from me

[Lynet]

I have tryed the Bosch software but it did not get the same as the original software. Maybe your fault code not will come up on Bosch?

[Citrus]

Hey Jens,

I don't know how far away you live from the Netherlands. If Hengelo (Overijssel) is within reach you could consider having it checked by Goritzlehner, they are specialized in Zebra Th!nks. Check http://www.goritzlehner.nl/think.php for more info.

I myself have the original Th!nk equipment but not the accompanying software (and no experience in using the stuff), so that is of no use at the moment.

Good Luck! Jaap.

[cs]

Hi Jens.

Sag mal, bist du Jens Sch. aus München und dein Think schwarz ? ;-)
Interessanter Fehler, hab ich noch nicht gehört.
Mein Tipp, wenn du in Süddeutschland sitzt ist: http://www.e-car-service.com/
In Vorarlberg. Sollten dir helfen können.

Aren t you Jens Sch. from Munich and your Think is black?
Interesting fault, never heard of this one.
My proposal for a diagnosis in your area would be http://www.e-car-service.com/
They should be able to help you.

evdriver

[Jens_Think]

Hi Jens.

Sag mal, bist du Jens Sch. aus München und dein Think schwarz ? ;-)
Interessanter Fehler, hab ich noch nicht gehört.
Mein Tipp, wenn du in Süddeutschland sitzt ist: http://www.e-car-service.com/
In Vorarlberg. Sollten dir helfen können.

Aren t you Jens Sch. from Munich and your Think is black?
Interesting fault, never heard of this one.
My proposal for a diagnosis in your area would be http://www.e-car-service.com/
They should be able to help you.

evdriver

Hi evdriver,

yes, that's me  .
I thought about bringing the car to a Bosch service in Kempten as they have also experience with Thinks, but e-car-service in Dornbirn is not much farther and they seem to be even more experienced.
Thanks for the tip!

Regards,
Jens

[cs]

Hello Jens.

I am Chris, we met at the Waldmühle once.
Please keep us updated, what fault it was and how to solve the problem.

evdriver

[hma]

Hi Jens_Think,

A red triangle (with a red lighting bolt inside) indicate some sort of high voltage fault, or isolation fault.
There are three types of isolation fault; internal, external and thermal.

You say the regeneration (recuperation) is not working during the state of fault. This indicate that the battery BMI/drive system does not allow charge during this faulty situation, but allows discharge. That's normal behavior.

If you have an internal or thermal isolation fault, there is not much to do.
However, an external isolation fault usually occurs if the fluid heater has gone bad or if the traction motor have some kind of ground fault.
To eliminate external isolation fault, try to disconnect the fluid heater high voltage outlet. If owning either a pre-production vehicle with gen0-PCU (VIN J004x) or a production vehicle with gen2-PCU (VIN>U005372) , you have to make a loop for the Emergency Power Off (EPO) circuit inside the connector. Gen1-PCU does not have EPO implemented in the heater/AC-outlet.
Please be extremely careful when doing this, the voltage inside the socket can easily cause serious injury or death.

If this test does not help you have to get your car diagnosed with the original battery tool; Zebra Monitor.

If your battery looks healthy (and your motor does not have ground fault) the problem can be related to the Power Control Unit (PCU). If so, you may announce in this post and I'll put you in contact with the (only) repairshop that fixes PCU's.

Br.
Håkon

[Jens_Think]

Hello Håkon,

thanks for your detailed explanation.
In the meantime the problem got worse and my Think does not charge anymore, or just for a few minutes before red triangle lights up .
Can this really be caused by the heater, too?

I measured it on the weekend and it's defective, ~1,2MOhm on the HV connector pins.
Without the EPO pins connected to 12V, the Think won't start or charge.
I did not yet try to connect them separately to 12V without the plug.. didn't dare to short anything.

I'm an electrical engineer and normally good at doing repairs, but I definitely prefer smaller devices like TV sets that fit on my work bench .

Luckily I met an Think expert in Munich who has test equipment, so I hope we can get at least a better error information from the PCU or battery soon.

Regards,
Jens

Hi Jens_Think,

A red triangle (with a red lighting bolt inside) indicate some sort of high voltage fault, or isolation fault.
There are three types of isolation fault; internal, external and thermal.

You say the regeneration (recuperation) is not working during the state of fault. This indicate that the battery BMI/drive system does not allow charge during this faulty situation, but allows discharge. That's normal behavior.

If you have an internal or thermal isolation fault, there is not much to do.
However, an external isolation fault usually occurs if the fluid heater has gone bad or if the traction motor have some kind of ground fault.
To eliminate external isolation fault, try to disconnect the fluid heater high voltage outlet. If owning either a pre-production vehicle with gen0-PCU (VIN J004x) or a production vehicle with gen2-PCU (VIN>U005372) , you have to make a loop for the Emergency Power Off (EPO) circuit inside the connector. Gen1-PCU does not have EPO implemented in the heater/AC-outlet.
Please be extremely careful when doing this, the voltage inside the socket can easily cause serious injury or death.

If this test does not help you have to get your car diagnosed with the original battery tool; Zebra Monitor.

If your battery looks healthy (and your motor does not have ground fault) the problem can be related to the Power Control Unit (PCU). If so, you may announce in this post and I'll put you in contact with the (only) repairshop that fixes PCU's.

Br.
Håkon

[cs]

hello from germany.

we have a lion think last generation here from a friend that has a similar problem. hma could you please explain more detailed how to put in the loop to bridge it. no worries about safety, its done by an experienced ev worker.
kind regards evdriver

[Warlock]

I dare myself to try to answer this, since I've been fiddeling with the heater of a newer (gen2) type Li-ion myself.

You have a oval plugg (or square with rounded edges) connectiong the heater to the PCU. The two thick leads in the centre (or close to the focal points if you like) are the 400Volt leads. Below these you see some metal connctors at the outlet. These are connectors for the loopback. You can measure these at the plugg to verifty if you like, the should be short-circuted with close to no resistance. You could also check this on the dummy-plugg if you have no AirCondition unit....

To make the car work (testing) you could shot this with anything you want, everything for a shrewdriver or a paper-clip, to more advanced leads/clips if you have any of this available.

Hope this was somewhat understandable and helpful...

[Jens_Think]

Hello,

in the meantime I disconnected/cut all heater wires but the isolation fault is still there, although very intermittent!
Last Friday I could charge for more than 3 hours before the error occurred, some days before it took less than five minutes.
I also got the Siadis/CHAS software and manufactured a plug with interface to RS232, but the connection is instable and I couldn't read the ECU settings yet.

@cs: Chris, if you haven't figured out already: you have to apply a 12V voltage to the 2 non-HV pins in the heater connector if you don't want to cut the heater wires.
Be very careful when you measure in the plug, I'm not sure whether there is a current limiting resistor on this 12V voltage or if it is directly connected to the 12V battery through the emergency switch.
Edit: just occurred to me that LiIon is probably Gen2 PCU so as Warlock wrote before, so you just had to short the 2 non-HV pins of the plug - which seems also different to the Gen1. Mine is round with 2 thick pins (heater HV) and to thin ones (12V loopback).

One other theory for my Think is that the problem could be in the softstarter for the 230V isolation transformer (a giant coil under the cover behind the driver's seat) but newer LiIon Thinks probably don't have this anymore.

Regards & good luck 
Jens

[joho]

Hi,
I have had the same problem as you describe. What helped for me was to dry up the car (after 2 mnd with wet wether) .  Have had no problem since, now 3 weeks ago.
Regards joho

[Jens_Think]

Hi,
I have had the same problem as you describe. What helped for me was to dry up the car (after 2 mnd with wet wether) .  Have had no problem since, now 3 weeks ago.
Regards joho

Hi joho,

on my last drive without the error it was dry, and since then the car is sitting in a dry garage.

Are there any HV connectors on the underside or in the front compartment which are known to be sensitive to humidity?

Regards,
Jens