Sv: Når får vi bilene våre ?

[Citrus]

Dear All,

During these days I use the heater in my Th!nk almost daily, I have the mes-dea fluid heater. When I start he heater I hear for a second water rushing through the heater core in the cabin, it sounds like there is some air trapped inside. The pump in the heater circuit sounds smoothly (both pumps run smoothly actually). Around once a month the heater stops working during a ride. Switching the car off and starting it again makes the heater work again. Is this a symptom of air in the heater system?

I am aware of the bleeding method described in the Th!nk workshop manual, to me it seems rather complicated. A permanent "T-piece" for bleeding would be an easier option in my view.

However, during my search for a "T-piece" one person recommended me to bleed the system using a vacuum. The filling cap on the reservoir is removed and vacuum (> -0.9 Bar) is applied there. It can be done with an empty system (first the system is vacuumized, then cooling liquid is added with the vacuum in place) or with an already filled system (which I would opt for) since the cooling liquid will avoid the rubber pipes to become flat. When air is present it will be sucked through the liquid towards the reservoir. Running the pumps (and the heater) during vacuumizing can be tricky though since the air bubbles will grow bigger when vacuum is applied.

My question is if someone already has experience with bleeding the Th!nk using vacuum. Good theories are welcome as well, especially if one sees that harm can be done. The other question is how to avoid the heater to work when vacuumizing (ideally the pumps would run). Since I have a GEN2 PCU the manual mentions an unhealthy emergency shut-down of the PCU if I just disconnect the high voltage cable. Any suggestions?

Many thanks in advance for your reply, Jaap.

[hma]

This can be two things:
1) Air trapped in the cabin heat-exchanger
2) Clima and Defrost Control Module (CDCM)

If the Emergency Power Off (EPO) circuit is open, the car will not be drivable and will shut down immediately.

Next time you experience the heater stop working, don't restart the car, but open the hood and try to listen if the heater circulation pump is running. The fluid heater control connector (on top) is powered by CDCM via the same line as used for R24 "cabin water pump relay". Which means the relay R24/ water pump is turned off if the fluid heater is turned off.

[elektrolux]

I would stop using the heater immidiatly. That rushing sound is the last you hear before the heater dies.

There are many solutions here on one of the treads showing how to fit a T to the upper hose. I use the radiator cap from a Honda 1500 Gold Wing and a plastic T piece to make a permanent bleeding system for the air. The radiator cap is secured to the bracket holding the bonnet locking mekanism. It works perfectly, and none of the heaters I have fitted this to have failed.

[Citrus]

Dear All,

Thanks for the reply. I'm not happy not using the heater, it is cold!

After mounting the T-piece how do you avoid the heater switching on (otherwise it might burn I'm afraid) but have the heater pump running without causing an EPO?

Thanks!

[hma]

I think you also will find some photos and comments of interest in this post http://elbilforum.no/forum/index.php/topic,3773.msg50928.html#msg50928

Adding a T-branch is quite easy. I have tested both the Goldwing "radiator hose" and a standard brass-branch (16mm-to16mm pass-through and 9-12mm escape branch). I prefer the last solution. The Goldwing radiator was a bitt more messier, and more difficult to get rid of air, compared to the simple transparent nylon 9-12mm escape hose.

It sounds like you have massive air trapped in your cupé radiator (heat exchanger), and that may require adding more pressure. I'm no expert on bleeding such systems, so maybe others have better recommendations.

However, to run the fluid heater circulation pump - without turing the heater on; simply remove the 12V control connector (black) on top of the heater. When this is disconnected the heater will not turn on.
Then put your fan switch in 1-4 position and the temperature selector on red. Then the pump will circulate the coolant and the heater will be off.

Hope this helps, and please report back when you have taken the next action.

[Citrus]

And here is the update!

Thanks HMA for the suggestions, both I have used. I used the principle of the T branch without a T branch, well the pictures tell the story.

The venting assembly is a standard unit used in drinking water supplies and home heating systems. I bought two (16mm) hose connectors and mounted them on the bleeder using Loctite 577 (which costed me an arm and a leg). I have been bleeding for over an hour meanwhile squeezing the hoses, after 30 min with the heater on. With each change some air came out. In my case the solution was a 15 minutes ride with the transparent hose in place and the bleeder open. No sound of air any more and a lot of heat available :-)

The transparent hose is only there when bleeding is required, after bleeding the transparent hose is removed.

I could not resist the hose clamps, same as original. Just for the beauty

Thank you all!

[BauDemo]

This looks very nice.
Do you happen to have the article number and supplier where that bleeder can be purchased?
I just spent 30min trying to find it and it is jungle out there.

[elektrolux]

Looks good, and you are exploring the fact that the heater circuit is connected to the cooling circuit for the PCU. Thats why the fluid flows between the T-piece and the tank.

I'm glad you sorted this before the heater burned out. Strangely enough a few days ago, with only 2 hrs in between I got message that my fathers heater, and a heater on a car I used to own had stopped working despite a T peace and no air in the system. I have due to this ordered in some PTC heater elements.

[Citrus]

Dear All,

For BauDemo, I should have written the bleeder is a rather standard unit in the Netherlands since each country uses different standards.

The links below are from Dutch companies who sell the bleeder part, their site is in Dutch... I think Google translate will do, otherwise just ask.

http://www.groene-energiewinkel.nl/68030010--messing-sok-15-15-mm-met-aftapkraan.html

http://www.warmteservice.nl/Installatiemateriaal/Fittingen/Knelfitting-%28messing%29/VSH-messing-knelkoppeling-recht-met-aftap-15/p/40156745

Please note that the bleeder part is without the little key. Unfortunately neither webshop sells that key as well. In the Netherlands each house has such a key, I don't know for Sacandinavia. If you need the key as well search for "ontluchtingssleuteltje", the Dutch word for bleeder key. The 15mm version has a thread of 1/2" which nicely fits the hose connectors, the 22mm has a thread slightly larger then 3/4" and therefore of no use for us.

I used 16mm hose connectors, see below:

http://www.vaarshopvankalsbeek.com/categorie/messing-slangtule-binnendraad/

It is the one at the 5th position.


For Elektrolux,

It would be interesting to know if the failures are caused by a blown fuse in the PCU or if the heater itself is defective. You are not into giving the Calix heater a try? It would be my first option since it requires less adaptation in the car (yes I prefer to be lazy).

Please keep us updated about the root cause of these failures.

Kind regards to all.

[elektrolux]

I'm happy and surpriced. My fathers heater only needed a fill up off missing fluid? Is there a leak in there somewhere?

After bleeding out massiv amounts of air, its back working again.

So not all bad design of the Maes Dea heater that survived lack of fluid.

[Kethorp]

After Reading, with some confusion about all the troubles Think-owner seems to have with their fluid heaters, I wonder if there is a recognized method of preventive service one could use to avoid troubles?

Is there something one can do without being a skilled mechanic?  Does R&S do something at their service inspections?

[elektrolux]

Is there something one can do without being a skilled mechanic? 

Most important here would be to open up the bonnet and listen for rushing sound of air as the heater is energized.

There is a destinktive sound if air in the system

[cs]

Hello.

Heating seems to be a big thing every year when winter comes ;-)

The system looks quite similar to mine, with parts from the plumbers shop:

http://elbilforum.no/forum/index.php/topic,3773.msg60130.html#msg60130

except for that your t-piece can adapt a hose where I simply have to use a small bucket to catch overrunning drops.
Works fine.

CS

[BauDemo]

For BauDemo, I should have written the bleeder is a rather standard unit in the Netherlands since each country uses different standards.

The links below are from Dutch companies who sell the bleeder part, their site is in Dutch... I think Google translate will do, otherwise just ask.

http://www.groene-energiewinkel.nl/68030010--messing-sok-15-15-mm-met-aftapkraan.html

http://www.warmteservice.nl/Installatiemateriaal/Fittingen/Knelfitting-%28messing%29/VSH-messing-knelkoppeling-recht-met-aftap-15/p/40156745

Please note that the bleeder part is without the little key. Unfortunately neither webshop sells that key as well. In the Netherlands each house has such a key, I don't know for Sacandinavia. If you need the key as well search for "ontluchtingssleuteltje", the Dutch word for bleeder key. The 15mm version has a thread of 1/2" which nicely fits the hose connectors, the 22mm has a thread slightly larger then 3/4" and therefore of no use for us.

I used 16mm hose connectors, see below:

http://www.vaarshopvankalsbeek.com/categorie/messing-slangtule-binnendraad/

It is the one at the 5th position.

Thanks for the details!
I was unable to find such bleeding tee here in Sweden - I got some of the pro-stores try, but none could find it.
I am now exploring the possibility of ordering from the stores you listed and ship it to Sweden.
I really like the tee with built in bleeder - the solution I am using is much bigger and heavier, and about double the price.

Couple of questions:
- on the store's website it is specified as a tee working for compression connections, is this why you used Loctite 577 and not the usual Teflon tape?
- do you have any advice for a store that could sell both the pipe connectors and the tee?

Thanks again!

[Citrus]

Dear BauDemo,

Unfortunately I was not able to find a shop selling both the hose connectors and the bleeder piece. Even worse, I ordered from four different shops; Bleeder piece, hose connectors, hose clamps and Loctite...

It may be an option to only order the bleeder part in the Netherlands and the rest in Sweden to avoid unnecessary transport costs.

The 15 mm compression swivels have a (as far as I could determine exactly) 1/2" thread, therefore Teflon tape should work as well. I used Loctite since it fills the gaps between the threads (the threading is rather course and short, around four full windings) and it also mildly locks the screw connection.

Good luck!